Category: Parenting

>>the question, and your answers made me think about unschooling, as sort of a polar opposites, and how both hope to produce the same sort of person at the end. I’m curious how you view the ‘no rules, just principles’ aspect of radical unschooling… allowing children to pursue what they find they want to, without limits (I am not including hurting themselves, or running in traffic, or other dangerous things like that) and not requiring behaviors/chores of them. I’m sure I don’t completely understand the theory, so I’m having trouble encapsulating it here. When reading on it, I get the impression that rules/limits are damaging a child, emotionally.<<

The term ‘unschooling’ was coined by John Holt, who wrote several books on education.  His definition can be summed up here. I’ve read all of John Holt’s books and he doesn’t advocate educating children without guidance, limits, or saying ‘no’.  In fact, one of the first things I ever read about homeschooling was in Mothering magazine – it was an article by a homeschooling mother whose family was close to John and tried her best to integrate using his principles.  In that article, she described how he helped her daughter understand the mathematical concepts she was then struggling with.  He didn’t tell her that her daughter shouldn’t be learning math because she was frustrated and didn’t want to!  What he did was try to connect with her desire to learn and provided guidance according to her learning style.

The unwillingness to provide any structure/guidance/limits is where my main disagreement with radical unschooling lies.  While I know of several families who unschool and are bringing up lovely families, every one of them has clear guidelines and expectations, sometimes in the academic arena but definitely in other areas.  They don’t have a laissez faire, let the kids do whatever they want, when they want mentality that is part and parcel of radical unschooling.  Unfortunately the definition of unschooling has been co-opted by radical elements of the homeschooling world and it’s become very confusing to sift through the variances in different approaches.

To quote something I once heard on a parenting cassette: “Discipline without love is harsh.  Love without discipline is child abuse.”  I think that parents who won’t say ‘no’ to their children are misguided and harming their children in the short and long term, but one person’s opinion really is of minimal value.  What matters is what are the results these parents are getting?  Are parents who raise their children without boundaries raising giving, kind, and concerned individuals who are making the world a better place?  (When I read this  article six months ago, I saved it to share here –  it’s relevant to this discussion now so don’t skip reading it!)  Start paying attention to the families you see – look for parents with older kids because that’s when you see the long term results of a particular parenting approach.

Life inherently has limitations. Being a religious Jew means limitations – we live a life structured by G-d’s rules, and true freedom paradoxically comes with structure.  Otherwise you become a slave to your own desires, and that’s the farthest thing from freedom!  While unschooling can be compatible with Torah, radical unschooling can not.  I’ve said again and again that you must lovingly set and clarify boundaries – because there have to be limits.

A person must have some guidelines in life except doing whatever they feel like, when they feel like it, how they feel like it.  It’s wonderful to follow your passion, but kids who haven’t learned some inner discipline won’t be able to sustain the necessary effort to follow through – and success in any field requires effort.  Even when you don’t feel like it.

Avivah

Recently I’ve begun researching various colleges for my dd15, and yesterday after taking ds16 to have his wisdom teeth out, I stopped at the community college office to ask some questions.  I’ll have to go back with my kids and get an appointment with an advisor for each of them.

Right now I’m feeling conflicted about some issues on the horizon regarding my kids and college.  Dd15 is strongly leaning towards a profession that would be a very good fit for her and I’m very supportive of it.  It also is academically vigorous and will require 7 – 8 years of college.  There are only about 16 colleges that teach this field in the US – and none of them are anywhere close to the state we live in, which necessitates living away from home and raises the bill by about another $10,000 yearly.  Each year of schooling costs about $25 – 30,000 before living expenses, and there is very little financial aid available except for student loans.  Dd can get started within a year and could theoretically be finished as early as when she’s 22.  In the broad scheme of things, that’s pretty young, and she would have a career that could be balanced with raising a family and do something she enjoys and finds satisfying.

I have several views about life/family that aren’t easily reconciled when looking at this particular career path (similar though different issues with ds16), and I’m grappling with how to best guide my children.   I’m not telling them what to do or how to do it- that isn’t my role – but not to give them some direction when they’re requesting support would be wrong.  I’ve raised my children with the perspectives below, so these are currently views they share (which obviously might change with time).  1) If a couple is old enough to get married, they’re old enough to support themselves.  2) When someone is emotionally mature and ready for marriage  and finds the right person, that’s the time to get married – regardless if numerically that seems young or old to others.  3) Children are a blessing and a newly married couple shouldn’t  purposely put them on hold to complete academic requirements.  4) The responsibility for supporting the family is on the husband, not the wife.  5) Debt can become a huge albatross around the neck that can force people to make choices they don’t want to make.

Add in to this mix the desire of dd15 to spend a year in Israel, the desire of ds16 to spend several years in yeshiva once he’s 18 (ie, both potentially ‘time outs’ on the career path), and the reality that larger families generally require more financial resources.  So guiding them means considering a number of factors with both the long term and short term in mind.

I was telling all this to a good friend last night, and she told me I’m once again going to have to blaze my own trail.  And I told her, I’m tired of blazing my own trail for every single thing – I want to find someone who has similar values who has successfully navigated this, and just do whatever they did.  I don’t want to have to think, research, and reflect so much.  😆 But as I know very well, a meaningful life of joy doesn’t come from following the crowd unless that’s where my heart is.

So here’s where I’m at with all of this: sometimes I get too uptight and have to step back to regain perspective!  I have to remind myself that H-shem created a world where doing His will is the goal, and whatever we’re doing, it’s with the desire to serve Him and to be responsible stewards in this world of the resources we’re entrusted with.  I have to let go of trying to figure all of this out in advance, and do the best I can one day at a time, and trust that the partner that I’ve had raising my children all these years – H-shem – will continue to support us all and help us make the right choices.

Practically speaking I don’t know what that will look like, but I’ll share it with you when we figure it out!

Avivah

Today I set out to do my monthly shopping, which I always enjoy.  But it was a long day and when I got home there was the van to unpack, then a living room filled with boxes of groceries to put away – and the baby was crying while ds2 and ds3 discovered things I bought that they wanted to eat right that minute, pulling them out and asking to eat them (or just opening it and throwing the wrapper/peel on the floor). And it was time for dinner and my mother had gotten there earlier (I forgot to tell her I’d be home late) and wanted to give the kids their presents right then (she had somewhere she needed to be at a certain time so she couldn’t really wait).

The way I do present giving is that each person gets a gift, opens it, and thanks the giver before the next person receives anything.  It makes the entire thing an experience of togetherness instead of each person focusing on what he’s getting/giving.  That wasn’t what was happening!  Instead I had a chaotic, noisy house, was tired, hungry (it was 7 pm and hadn’t eaten since breakfast), tense, and felt like I’d scream if one more person touched me or even came near me. :))   Fortunately, I’ve learned when I feel like this that as long as I remember to take a deep breath and be careful about how I speak and interact with those around me, then it passes.

So I nursed the baby, my mom gave presents and left, we had dinner, we put away a bunch of groceries, the kids went to bed, I cleaned up the kitchen – and with each step, it got easier to unknot the tension I was feeling.  Now I’ve had a hot cup of tea and am enjoying a quiet house, and since what I was really feeling earlier was the need for was some self-time, it seemed like an appropriate time to respond to the question below!

>>Avivah, could you share how you manage to take downtime/selftime/recharging time for yourself?<<

This is such an important question!  Mothers do so much all day long for everyone, and it’s too easy to forget to take time for ourselves.  When we keep giving and giving without taking time to recharge ourselves, we end up resentful, hostile, and burnt out.  Oh, and guilty – guilty for feeling resentful and hostile, guilty for having needs, angry for feeling guilty for having needs….

My reality was living far from family, with no extra money for cleaning/babysitting help, a husband who wasn’t home very often – and having six children under the age of 9 home all day long, every single day.  So if I wanted to have a break, it was up to me to create the space for it to happen. This is crucial – you have to value yourself enough to make the time.  That might mean going to sleep early so you can get up when the house is still quiet, or staying up  late after the house has settled for the night (that’s what I do).  When you have that quiet time, you can use it for whatever you find relaxing and rejuvenating – talking to a friend, a good book and a cup of herbal tea, a relaxing bath, crafting, computer time, etc.

I used to love to go walking with a friend.  This has been different times of the day, depending on my life circumstances.  I started when I had two young children at home and one or two out for a few hours a morning, and I would take a double stroller with the two kids loaded up and go for a walk (and this was before the days of jogging strollers!) mid morning.  I sometimes went walking late at night after the kids were in bed (when I lived in a neighborhood that was safe enough to feel comfortable with that).  This depended on my buddy in large part – I found that my walking partners all ended up becoming friends, because you end up talking quite a bit to each other.  Then I moved to a new neighborhood and didn’t have anyone to walk with, but I started swimming a few times a week (I became friendly with someone on a women’s syncronized swimming team and they let me do laps while they practiced for their state and national competition – they offered this to me since they knew that I needed a womens only swim environment – I left the house at about 5 or 5:30 am and drove 20 miles in each direction to get there!)  This was when I was homeschooling and had five kids.   Later when I was in yet a different city and homeschooling six kids, I again found a walking buddy and at 5 am would head out before the kids were awake and before my husband left for the day.  At one point, I went to a woman’s gym to exercise almost daily, though I didn’t enjoy this nearly as much as a walk outside!  Unfortunately I haven’t been walking for a long time; I don’t have a partner and my efforts to consistently walk by myself didn’t pan out.

When my kids were all younger, it wasn’t enough to get up early or wait until 9 or 10 pm to have some quiet time.  My kids are fantastic, I love being with them – but there are a lot of demands on a mother and it can be very draining to go and go and go all day long.  I recognized that I needed to create a mini break in the middle of the day for myself.  I did that by putting my toddlers in for a nap once the baby was down for a nap.  Then, I’d tell the older three kids (this was when I had only six kids, so the older kids were about 6,8,9 when I started this) they needed to have quiet time in their rooms for an hour.  They didn’t have to nap, but they had to stay in their beds and they had to be quiet.  They could take a book or game with them, but they could not get out of bed and they couldn’t talk.  That was a huge help since I had an hour mid day to  physically and psychologically recharge myself, and enabled me to thrive through years with no outside help at all in any area, while continuing to enjoy my family.

Nowadays I have other ways to meet my needs.  Some people have asked me how I find time to write on my blog. The answer is that writing here is something I do because I enjoy it.  Once in a while I start to feel like I have to do it, and that’s usually when you might notice a two day hiatus while I recenter myself.  Recharging yourself shouldn’t be something that feels like a chore, or something else on your ‘to do’ list!

Another thing is to give yourself a break emotionally.  Tonight, why was I getting so uptight?  Where was all the pressure coming from?  From everyone else?  Not really.  Mostly it was inside my head.  It was what I was telling myself that was the true problem – usually I can have that exact same situation going on and I can stay cheerful and relaxed.   We have to learn to let go and relax our standards sometimes.  There are things you can do at some periods of your life that will leave you chronically run down and overextended at other stages.  And we have to learn to accept ourselves as we are, not only when we’re at our best, but when we’re at out worst.

Avivah

>>Do you allow your kids to research topics of interest on the internet?<<

This isn’t a black and white answer.  In general I’m not a fan of the computer or internet for kids, even though it’s an amazing resource.  My main concern is that it can be a huge time waster and addictive.  There’s a huge amount of material to sift through, and it can take a long time to get to the ‘meat’ of an area of interest.

A couple of weeks ago dd9 and a friend were working on preparing a presentation for their geography club, so I sat with them at the computer to help them find their information.  When they get older, I do allow them to use the internet on their own – that’s for kids about 12 or older. We only have one computer and when combined with the number of people who want to use computer, and the limitation that they can only use it when their chores and academic work are completed, they naturally can’t/don’t spend huge amounts of time online.

Each of the older three kids have their own interests.  Ds16 is probably the one who needs to use it the most for research- he has a particular area of interest that he’s constantly learning more about, and though he’s read books on the topic, he enjoys the online resources he’s found.

My second concern about the internet is the huge amount of offensive material that could be accessed.  I’m not concerned about the kids seeking out unwholesome materials as much as realizing that they could accidentally click on a link or mistype something that could take them somewhere unsavory.  We keep the computer in an area of the house where people are always around.  My husband and I have recently discussed getting a filter, too. Until fairly recently, like about a year ago, our kids weren’t using the internet much so it didn’t seem necessary.  But now it seems prudent.

We also until recently had an older computer that had some kind of problem that kept us from being able to see youtube videos or other high definition graphics – I considered this an advantage. 🙂  Even though there are loads of educational things on youtube (this is how I learned how to preserve tomato seeds for planting), there are lots of others that aren’t okay and when you view the main screen, there are often objectionable pictures or titles that you can’t help but view.

So while I’m not against it, I’m careful to limit it.

Avivah

>>you get so much credit for not losing your mind being home every single day with 8 kids. really.<<

Quick correction – there are actually nine kids. 😆

At the camp my dd13 was working at this summer, there were two adult women and another teen assistant in addition to her.  She came home one day, once again telling me how amazed these two women were about me.  I asked her how they could be impressed by me when they don’t know me from a hole in the wall?  She said “They can’t understand how you can have all of us around all day – they said they would go crazy.”   Now you see how easy it is to show you’re made of the stuff of angels – be able to tolerate your kids without checking in at the loony bin and that’s all the proof anyone will need. 🙂

“How can she stand to be around her kids the whole day?  I mean, I like my kids but I don’t like them that much.”  My dd has heard me say I think it’s unfortunate that this is such a common sentiment, but this is the first time she’s heard it herself, and this is exactly what she was asked.  The women told my dd that Shabbos and Sundays are the hardest days of the week for them, because their kids are home (one was, ironically, a preschool teacher).  One went on to tell dd:

“My kids get bored all the time.”    My dd13 responded, “That’s because they go to school so they’re used to being entertained.”  “Really??”  This took the woman aback – she clearly had never considered this.    After they asked her these questions and more, they continued discussing their perplexity with one another about me.   “It must be the kind of personality that she has.”  “Maybe all of her kids were just born good.”  They were ‘mystified’, to quote dd.

My dd was laughing when she told us about this since she knows quite well that I’m a regular mom and that she and her siblings weren’t all ‘born good’.  She said it seemed like they knew what they were offering as reasons couldn’t be the answer but they couldn’t think what else it could be.

So are you wondering what the answer is??  🙂  I can reassure you that I wasn’t born with a special personality that equipped me to enjoy my kids any more than anyone else!  By nature I’m not an especially patient person nor was I one of those women who just loved being around kids before having my own.  Those qualities have been developed over time.  See, you don’t need to be naturally saintly to enjoy having your kids around!

The secret to enjoying spending time with your kids, is to spend more time with them and make it enjoyable!  When you spend relaxed time with your children, you enjoy them and are pleasant to them. They then respond to your pleasantness by behaving better and wanting to please you, to which you positively respond by wanting to spend more time with them…..  It creates a positive spiral between you and your children, and this positive spiral is what makes it enjoyable for parents and children to spend lots of time together.  Everyone likes being around people who love and respect them, right?

It’s not hard for me to be around my kids because I like them.   I don’t mean that I love them – all parents love their children.  I mean that I really like them.  (Having well disciplined children makes this much easier- your positive view of them isn’t constantly being overshadowed by their bad behavior.)  And as kids get older, they just get better and better.  I’ve said it a couple of times before, but teenagers are awesome!  They have the maturity and critical thinking skills to have really stimulating conversations and fun interactions.  It’s kind of like getting to be around your friends all day.  The myth of impossible teenagers is really a shame, since everyone buys into it and it becomes a self perpetuating reality, and parents end up missing the enjoyment of an amazing stage in their childrens’ lives.

Even though this concept is so simple, it’s foreign to our culture.  Parenting is supposed to be hard, filled with struggle and aggravation.  Motherhood and martyrdom seem to go hand in had.  When someone tells me how wonderful I am for spending so much time with my kids, I know they just don’t understand.  Raising children is work; it takes lots of time, energy, and effort.  But I’m not suffering or gritting my teeth every day – I’m so grateful and feel so blessed; I often feel that it’s not fair my husband has to go to work all day and doesn’t get to spend the kind of time I do with the kids.  It’s true that it took work to get to this point, but the hardest thing was probably to let go of my ideas that being around my kids was something to be endured.

Avivah