I’ve had some questions about the program I mentioned considering for my daughter – I’d be engaging in wishful thinking if I said the response of most people to this idea has been positive. There seems to be widespread disbelief that I would consider this option, and I think part of this is because I haven’t addressed some understandable concerns so people think that I haven’t considered them.
First of all, I want to be clear that nothing has been decided. She hasn’t been accepted yet and we haven’t decided if we’ll definitely let her go if she is accepted. It’s possible I’ll learn new information that will totally change our current view and shift our decision in the opposite direction, but at this point it’s heavily leaning toward sending her.
>>I don’t understand why you would send your child to high school when she’s already graduating this year. She doesn’t need it and it seems like a waste of her time.<<
Not only have I been asked this several times, but this is definitely the response dd is getting from all her friends. This response underscores a major difference in how I look at education and how most people look at it. Dd will have her high school diploma in 2 months. She doesn’t NEED to go to more school to earn credits. However, we see learning more as a positive, as something more than just transcripts, credits, and tests. Although this is definitely a high school program, dd sees it more like a post-high school option for her, a chance to experience a different culture, learn a new language, meet new people – very much like a foreign exchange or transfer student. She sees the value of the learning itself and the inherent gain in becoming a better educated person, and loves the idea of getting to travel and have new experiences. She was planning to attend community college in the fall and this is a nice time to take a break without setting herself back significantly with her college plans.
>>Isn’t she going to be bored ?<<
No, because high schools across the world (and this country!) have different curricula; they’re not all teaching the same information. I expect that most of what she is taught will be new to her. History and geography will be of a different country, writing skills can always use improvement, and she’ll be doing intensive language studies for Hebrew. The science and math classes are supposedly at a higher level than here in the US; if the testing she did last week at her screening is an accurate indication, then she feels it will be very challenging. Additionally, math is taught using the spiral approach rather than the strictly linear approach that we have. To my understanding, she’ll also be taking math class in Hebrew, which in and of itself will be challenging since she doesn’t yet have much experience with conversational Hebrew. There are also three options regarding the difficulty of the classes that she can choose from. And of course there’s the experience of being in a new country, going on trips, meeting new people – it’s not all about academics by any means!
>>And about your daughter…Bnei Akiva is also different…talk about future values…come on, you protected your kids until now….from all that I have gathered about you and your family, this is not what I would have thought you would choose for your kids…<<
You don’t use the same tool in every situation – a hammer is a great tool, but sometimes you need a screwdriver. Different goals necessitate different choices; we view this as primarily an academic experience with spiritual possibilities, not a spiritual experience with academic possibilities, and are discussing it and preparing her for this accordingly. As an academic choice in a religious girls setting I feel that this program has the potential to be a very positive experience for her on a number of levels. While it’s true that there are differences in worldview between us and those running this program, I don’t believe they’re inherently as significant as they they may seem. (I’m not naive and I lived in Israel for ten years; I think I have a fairly accurate sense of what the differences in perspective are.)
I also feel that you can learn and grow from all people. The people running this program have solid values; they’re good people. I’m not afraid of the differences – I think learning to embrace differences and respect others who make different choices, while maintaining your sense of who you are, is a sign of maturity; at least for me it has been. This is something that has been part of how I’ve raised my kids; that you can and should have strong beliefs but that shouldn’t mean looking down on others.
>>AND, at 15 years old??? Really young and vulnerable to send away.. Please – rethink this! The(y) have totally different tznius (Avivah’s translation – modesty) standards…can she keep to hers withstanding peer pressure?<<
I went to Israel to study for a year when I was 16, but because I graduated 12th grade along with my (older) peers, not one person ever commented to my mother with any concern about my age. I agree that 15 is very young, but I also don’t think that there’s a magic number when a child is ready. I was a dorm counselor in a girls seminary abroad, and I saw how many 18 and 19 year olds were immature and not ready to appropriately handle the independence from their families. It’s not about the number, it’s about the readiness of the person to handle the experience. Dd will be almost 16 when she goes; we wouldn’t consider sending a child of any age who hadn’t already demonstrated the necessary maturity and levelheadedness, but dd has proven she has these qualities time and again.
We’ve discussed some challenges that will probably be part of her experience, and part of that is that we have different expectations for her than what some of her peers may be allowed, particularly regarding level of immersion in secular culture and mores of dressing. However, she’s also experienced this in camp for the last three summers – she’s been very grounded in her response and handled it gracefully. I realize that there’s a difference between being away for four weeks and for ten months – but as parents, after we’ve done the best we can to inculcate them with our values, we have to gradually let them try out their wings. Trusting our kids is more than lip service; to trust them means we give them opportunities to make choices. That can be scary for a parent because there’s no guarantee that they’ll choose what you want, but this is part of the growing up process.
In my opinion, peer dependence is the biggest concern for any parent in an environment in which kids are surrounded by same age peers all day – including your average local schools. Dd not only hasn’t been immersed in a culture that pressures kids to conform to whatever their peers are doing for the last ten years (thereby making her less susceptible to doing things just because her peers do), but will be one of the oldest in her class and tends to be socially confident. The combination means that I’m significantly less concerned about peer pressure/dependence than I’d be if she were one of the youngest. She knows that you can be a fun and well-liked person without compromising your values. Again, she’s been in this role before and is comfortable with it.
>>I know the free schooling is enticing but at what price???<<
Important decisions can’t be made based primarily on the dollars involved, even for a super frugal person like me. There are things you do not because it’s cheaper, but because it has a value to you. For example, I spend much more on alternative doctors, herbs, supplements rather than take my kids to the doctors/give them medications covered by my insurance. I also spend a lot more on food than I would if health weren’t a priority to me. We pay for homebirths out of pocket though I could have my entire pregnancy and hospital stay paid for by insurance. So obviously getting something for free isn’t the most important criteria to me, since I’ve repeatedly demonstrated with other choices that our decisions are made based on if it matches our goals.
Not only that, free tuition in and of itself isn’t necessarily a significant savings over the alternative for dd. I’ve successfully homeschooled for almost a decade now and spent less than $7000 on all six of the school age kids during that time ($5500 of which was for religious studies tutoring for my oldest ds). So you can see that the costs of homeschooling aren’t exactly breaking me financially – it’s cost me less than $50 this past year for her academic costs.
In fact, sending dd to this program will be more expensive than keeping her here. Thanks to financial aid and scholarship money (just got a message a couple of days ago about a $500 scholarship she needs to claim in the next two weeks before it goes to someone else), community college tuition and books will be entirely covered if she stays home for the coming year. Just the ticket and passport expenses necessary for travel overseas will run about $1500, and she’ll certainly need some kind of spending money for the year! I overheard a couple of parents at the screening talking about how they could use the money they’re saving on tuition for a family trip to Israel to visit their child, or to buy the child a laptop with Skype so they can easily keep in touch – but that’s not my reality. I’m considering this in spite of the costs to me, because technically the more frugal thing to do would be to keep her home.
I have so many, many thoughts on aspects of this decision and there are a number of points that could be discussed in depth (certainly I’ve thought about them in depth!). One crucial factor in making this decision is that we know our daughter – and we have a lot of confidence in her.
Avivah
So, I haven’t finished reading this entry yet (I need to get the kids’ lunch) but I quickly wanted to say, I think that coming to Israel would be great! Since my children are younger, I didn’t want to really weigh in, but I can’t believe the negative reactions you’ve been getting! It’s amazing to me! Being in Israel is a mitzvah! It’s not like you’re considering sending her to anti-Semetic France or something! This is the holy land, the Jewish homeland. For that alone, I think sending her would be great! That and, you seem to have found something that is a good fit. Gtg. 🙂
This sounds like an amazing opportunity. I’m surprised by the negativity you’re encountering. I’m sure it will be a challenge on many levels for your daughter, but that is what life is about – and she is clearly old enough to face a few challenges. Good luck with whatever you decide!
Wow, you do have a lot to process! I just wanted to put in my two cents. I went away overseas for HS at 13, albeit a very mature 13. I agree that it’s not the age but the maturity that matter more. My experience was incredible and I’d say that my HS is pretty much entirely responsible for who I am today–in a very good way. While I certainly didn’t appreciate it at the time, the hashkafos that I absorbed tend to stick out the strongest, even more so than what was learned later. This sounds like it could be a fantastic opportunity for your daughter, especially if she is confident socially and an independent thinker. Bnei Akiva do tend to be very different than what I think your family’s standard is, however, there are many components to the program, as you say. Will this be something that you’ll be asking rabbinical opinion on? It seems that you have a lot to think about–what will you be basing your decisions on?
I’m always so happy when you share your thought processes on something with the rest of us. I feel like it helps the rest of us learn how to think things through clearly (well, at least me). I’m not sure why anyone who knows you or who has been reading your blog would question your decisions as a parent. You are the most amazing Mom I know. Trust your instinct. I know other girls who have gone to Israel during/for highschool and I have never heard of a negative experience!! Good luck!
You are far too kind to say this to anyone, but should you hear more criticism on this subject, I hope you’ll tell the person to stick it out their ear. Having read your posts on topics as (relatively) minor such as which supplier to choose for your whole grains, it is obvious the intense level of consideration you lend to matters. Why anyone would assume that you would devote less time, effort, discussion, prayer, and thoughtful contemplation on a matter as important as your sweet daughter is simply moronic. You and your family will make the best choice for you and your family (whatever that may be), just as you strive to do so in everything – large and small. In fact, that is the draw that keeps me coming back to your blog — your constancy in trying to live your principles is magnificent.
As for the school abroad, it sounds like a magnificent adventure!
I appreciate all the positive feedback – I feel very fortunate to have such wonderful blog readers here!
Chava – you’re right, but there’s also a time and place for everything. All the positives in Israel are only positive if a child is ready for it, so I think that’s part of the concern, that dd is young.
Debbie – I knew that I would get some negative feedback on this and initially was debating about if I should share about it here, so I wasn’t surprised! People understandably tend to feel most comfortable in their comfort zone and this is pushing some people out of that zone.
Talya – I appreciate hearing about your positive high school experience. As far as what we’re basing our decision on, it will be soley on if we feel it will be a beneficial experience for her.
R – I don’t mind if people question me – I’m not living my life up on a pedestal; I’m just a regular mom trying to do the best I can, making mistakes along the way.
I wonder if the reason so many people who have gone to high school in Israel had a good experience is that in some ways it’s a self-selecting process? Meaning that it’s going to be those who are most ready for the experience who tend to look into this as an option?
aadrw – hi, and welcome! I always love when people come out of lurkdom to share their thoughts here. 🙂 Thank you for your comment on living according to principles – I try!
I know that anyone who has expressed concern is coming from a good place out of a desire to help, so I don’t feel annoyed with them. Sometimes I do wish that people would consider that I’ve probably thought about this quite a bit or ask me for my thoughts before immediately telling me it’s a mistake. But I’ve had ten years of experience in educating my children in spite of the opinions of others, so I guess this is really nothing new!
I also went oversees for high school at age 13. It was one of the best descions my parents made for my education. I had a great experiance. There is a maturity one gets from going away from home. Sounds like a great experiance which will be a big highlight of her teenage years and life. Is she planning to go to seminary in addition or is this her sem year?
Hi, Rivky, welcome! She’s not currently interested in going to seminary, though I’ve told her that when she’s 18 if she’s interested she can go.
Avivah,
A typical high school program from 10th grade and up focuses only on Bagrut, Bagrut and more Bagrut. That’s IT!! You can ask any Israeli who went through high school here, even charedim who went to a more chardal type school.
You can come here and enroll in the municipal ulpan for 200 shekels (about $50) a month, and have an intensive ulpan, meeting all kinds of people and participating in tiyulim.
The ulpan basically helps you to converse in Hebrew at the end. The younger you are, the higher the success rate of maintaining what you learn. You also need to use the language often.
The high school program sounds nice on paper, but that’s it. Americans can get “fooled” by this.
Sara
Thank you for your feedback, Sara, and welcome! Are you saying that there’s no real learning in Israeli high schools because the focus is on the testing/graduation requirements? Or that there’s a lot of pressure because of the testing? Are you familiar with this particular program? Do you live in Israel or the US, and if you’re in the US, I’m curious about your perspective on US high schools. I went to high school in NY where we focused on Regents testing in addition to the standard high school graduation requirements, but I don’t think that drastically changed the quality of the education from that offered in schools in other states.
I don’t know if you read my post last week about the program explaining that they have a different track in tenth grade for the English speaking students; for 11th and 12th grade they are with the Israeli students fully but she wouldn’t go for more than a year. The classes themselves aren’t the only draw, nor is learning Hebrew. It’s a complete package – it’s a social experience as well that won’t occur for a 15 year old attending a municipal ulpan. Where would she live? Who would she spend Shabbos with? Who would her friends be and where would she meet them? What about trips, touring, volunteer chesed programs?
I live in a very Anglo neighborhood in Israel. Depending on where your daughter lives, she can board with a family whom you trust, obviously, volunteer for many local charitable organizations, join the local youth groups if she wants, they are very Israeli, meet new families and make new friends in the neighborhood and outside the neighborhood. It’s all about making connections in Israel. She has to have her year long program planned out with plan A, B or C, if one that doesn’t work out.
The municipal ulpan last for 4-5 months per session, is intensive and has 3-4 touring events. The class is mixed, young and old alike, probably the youngest student I’ve seen is post high school. Since homeschoolers are comfortable mixing across ages, I don’t see why your 15 yo should only learn with other 15 yos. In general, the 15 yos in Israel who are not chareidim tend to be boy crazy at this age. But if your daughter is mature and knows how to carry herself she should choose her social group wisely.
I believe at the 11the and 12th grades, time is spent mainly on bagrut.
Sara, I don’t see what the advantage is of the suggestion you’re making – it would be a lot of work and logistics to arrange just to try to make it somewhat comparable to what we already have in place. The idea you’re proposing sounds like a better option for a 20 year old than a 15 year old. I’m having trouble understanding what sounds better about the municipal ulpan option for such a young girl than an organized program with volunteer work, trips, dorming, meals, intensive ulpan, same age peers, connections – all wrapped up into one and paid for to boot.
It sounds like you really are bothered by the school system and would go out of your way to avoid it, even at great effort and expense – is that accurate?
The only concern I have is the culture shock she will experience from being homeschooled and around you every day, to going away for (a year? how long will it be) a long, long time away from her family, and having this as her first real social experience. Wont it be a huge transition and a huge jump? Instead of local school, which you eschew for personal reasons, she’s jumping all the way to going to another country, away from her family? I’m confused, there’s a dichotomy here.
Mindy, I’ll have to respond in a separate post to your point here since I think what you’re asking reflects a common misconception about homeschooling and social experiences.
Mindy, what do you mean, it will be her first real social experience? Do you homeschool? From reading the blog, I know that she has gone away for several summers to camp, not to mention all the other “social experiences” she has no doubt had. Yes, I’m sure it will be a huge transition for her, but every young person eventually goes through that at some point and Aviva is confident that her daughter can handle it.
Okay I didnt know she had gone to camp. that changes the picture. good luck!
I have to go back and read what you had previously written. All I can add is that my kids went to Israel to learn for a year or more (granted, I am speaking of sem for the girls) and the experience was one of a kind and they came back better for it.
Regardless, this is a personal decision and I knew my kids as you know yours and we can only do the best we can do.
Good for you! Don’t let anyone say anything to you–she is your daughter and you know her better than anyone.
Those who are concerned about differing worldviews–soon enough your daughter will be facing them in the workplace, in dating (not everyone is honest about their hashkafas, sorry to say), and in the world at large. If she can stay true to herself despite these, then kol ha’kavod to her and to you!