Dd15 has been an amazing sport about her school experience this year, but to say it’s been far from ideal is to dramatically understate it. She’s been in the school’s most difficult class since their founding, and though there have been substantial efforts on the part of the administration to deal with the underlying issues, there haven’t been significant improvements.
So we’re now searching for another option for her for the coming year. The challenge is that in Israel, everything is very religiously polarized. I like the school she’s in now very much – the administration is charedi, but the student body is a mixture of girls from homes of different religiosity. There’s an openness and acceptance of the girls that I think is important, and I wish that there was a way she could continue there. But short of moving up or down a grade, that’s not a possibility.
Two different schools have been recommended: the first is a Bais Yaakov in Haifa, and the two teachers who know her best have both made this recommendation. It’s taken a week but I’ve been able to be in touch with the school and finally got a name and the direct extension of the person to talk to. Maybe tomorrow will be the lucky day I manage to reach that contact. 🙂 I’m not thrilled about dd having to commute so far daily (not to mention the significant added expense) but the recommendation of these teachers is something I value.
A neighbor who knows our family and this daughter well strongly recommended another school, and gave me a phone number for a teacher who works there. I called her tonight, then spoke to a parent who sent two daughters to this school, and I literally feel sick to my stomach. Dd15 and ds13 came into my room right after these calls and asked me why I looked so depressed.
You know why? Because I can’t stand the kind of attitudes I’m hearing, and the idea of having to put my child in a place where this considered normal and acceptable, and even desirable really disturbs me – namely the exclusive, judgmental, narrow minded attitude that being a good person means conforming to very narrow external guidelines. (I hope to write another post about this issue in depth, regarding bringing teenagers on aliyah and the cultural divide that you encounter between the American and Israeli approaches to being an Orthodox Jew.)
The teacher kept trying to to assess dd with questions like who the girls in her class are rather than answer my questions about the school, and though she was very pleasant, her comments all implied negative judgments of others that aren’t living according to a strict Israeli charedi definition of Judaism. One statement that was representative of the entire conversation was when she told me the school is unlikely to accept dd15 because dd17 uses the internet and might ‘corrupt’ her younger sister (without knowing a thing about dd17 and notwithstanding that dd15 doesn’t use the computer).
The mother who sent her daughters there was overflowing with praise for how wonderful the school is and how they only take good girls from the best homes. “What constitutes the best homes?” I ask. Families who are “keeping the house clean”, I’m told. Being that I like clarity rather than ambiguous statements like this, I ask what this means specifically. I wasn’t surprised at the answer – it was pretty much what I expected – but what I was dismayed about was what she told me right after that. This isn’t the first time I’ve heard the approach she was telling me was the norm, but I’m having a very, very hard time reconciling it with my idea of what it means to live a life of integrity as a Torah Jew.
Here’s what I mean. She said, if people have a computer, they keep it quiet. Me: “You mean, they lie when they are asked if they have a computer?” Her: “Yes.” But, she continued, “You’re not really lying. If your daughter doesn’t use the computer, then it’s like you don’t have a computer.” I said that approach would present me with a challenge to my sense of integrity. She said (and she’s not the first to tell me this): “Everyone does it. You’re living here now and you have to forget your ideas of how things work. You have to learn to play the game, say ‘yes’ to what everyone else says yes to, and then do what you want. It’s not about being truthful, it’s about what you believe in.” I was very subdued when I thanked her for her perspective and hung up.
Dd15 is a wonderful girl, and I think that any school would be lucky to get her. Really. (Her teacher at a meeting last week told me, meeting my older girls caused her to reevaluate her long held beliefs about education and parenting. Why? Because “the school system can’t and doesn’t produce girls like yours”.) She’d have no problem going along with all their rules, and her code of dress and behavior are already in line with what the school demands. She really wants to grow and have a religiously strong peer group. And it does sound like the school has a very warm and positive approach to Judaism and to the girls.
So what’s my problem? I feel very conflicted, because in so many ways we share the values of this school. And in so many ways, I want to run screaming as fast as I can in the other direction. Do I really have to deny my basic sense of honesty and decency to get my child into a good school? They say that in order to acclimate when you move here, you have to be willing to do what everyone around you is doing, but I like who I am, I like who my children are, and I think it would be a real loss to just go along with the crowd when I don’t see any benefits in terms of the long or short term results of that approach.
Tomorrow I’ll give this school a call and speak with them directly, and will probably go ahead and visit there for the sake of doing our research (unless they tell us our family isn’t ‘clean’ enough first). And I’ll call the other school (which is currently the only other option) and see about arranging a visit there. This entire process has meant tremendous inner conflict because there are substantial philosophical issues involved in making these choices that have long term impact, but I’m hopeful that we’ll find an option that will be a decent choice for dd.
Avivah
Avivah, I am hearing you loud and clear here. We have gone through a lot in transitioning from homeschool to school-school, as you know, and what you are saying is so eerily similar and very painful. My kids know that mommy’s mantra is that you can’t educate from a place of fear, and yes, a lot of what passes for religiosity and religious education/training is fear based. I have a friend in Israel who is going through the search process for educational options for her daughter. I will email you privately with her contact info, she may have some info/perspective.
Hi Avivah-
I was wondering if you also had a look at schools in Tiveria. The commute may be easier there.
Good luck!!
Someone at my shiur mentioned a school in Tiveria, but I don’t know anything about it. If you have a website/contact info, I’m open to possibilities!
Charedi schools typically don’t have websites. The American ones usually do.
Avivah-my daughter goes to the Ulpanit in Tiveria-Sharona’s daughters went there as well. If you want call me 0543068588-it is a Dati school with a very nice approach to Judaism and Olim.
Susan -BTW I think we met at a Bris.
Hi, Susan, welcome! Did we meet at a bris the first day I was in Israel? If so, I know just who you are and remember our conversation!
Thank you for the feedback on the ulpanit – I’ll add it to my list of schools to look into. 🙂
Yes-we met your first day here. I am impressed with all you have accomplished so far.
Wow! sounds like a tough situation.
Just wondering about your prospective of homeschooling in Israel for U.S kids…
Thanks!
Jessi, I know you asked me about homeschooling in Israel ages ago and I have that post as a draft but not yet finished! I promise, I really didn’t forget about it!
What a stressful situation! We are having a similar dilemma although our children are much younger. We want to live in a moshav instead of the city and every moshav here is very clearly divided by which type of Israeli defined Judaism you practice. After 2 years of being in Israel (and living in a chardal moshav, a small city and a chassidish moshav) we have learned that our hashkofa aligns with the chardal movement even though we have the minhagim and dress of chassidim.
This has been terribly conflicting for us. We have realized that the only place where we will be able to have a say in our children’s chinuch and to be able to be actively involved is in the chardal system. I don’t know if this is helpful for you, but I hope it is!
It is very sad how deep the divisions run here. Since we are frum but we don’t look down on others who may choose to serve in the army or who wear a tznius but different uniform and we appreciate higher education we just do not fit into the very narrow Israeli-defined charedi box.
Wishing you much hatzlocha in finding the right school for your daughter!
Bluma, I can tell you understand exactly how deep the issues we’re up against are. We’re coming to terms with the fact that we’re going to have to either give up who we are and what we believe in to go along with the charedi world, or we’re going to have to affiliate more with a group that shares our values more but externally looks different than we do. That’s okay for our younger kids, but for our older kids who already see themselves in one camp religiously, it’s really much more complex and it’s a path we’re trying to navigate together with them.
Many charedi girls go to charedi schools but live a different life outside of school. They don’t really have a charedi lifestyle, meaning they hang out of the home with girl friends, doing makeup, dressup, hairdos, painting their nails, taking pictures, and surfing on the Internet. A lot of self-denial and facades. Very sad, and very confused society. The best is , to be yourselves, and don’t go with the flow. Be happy with what you are, don’t redefine yourselves, and live double or triple lives — school life, outside school life, social life, homeschool life, etc. Be true to yourselves. Hashem knows what and who we are, we can’t fool Him..
We are Christians & were looking for a conservative church. One denomination sounded really good, until I heard a similar story. The church discouraged listening to the radio, but instead of leaving it up to your own conscience, they had a rule against it. Everyone had their radios hidden in their cupboards in case the pastor came by! Like you said, this attitude seems to encourage deception.
Honestly, this denomination has a very good reputation & produces good children, so it’s sad it’s legalistic.
Hope you can find a good school!
Have you considered homeschooling?! 😉
That’s exactly the problem – that they do have an amazing reputation and the girls seem to be really wonderful, just the kind of peer group that dd would love. But I don’t agree with this approach to education/parenting. My dh and I are having lots of interesting conversations about clarifying our values!
Homeschooling would be a last option for dd at this point, since she wants to integrate socially into Israeli culture and though there are many things homeschooling can do, in our situation it can’t help enough with this.
Avivah, why am I not surprised in the slightest bit? I was wondering this exactly when you decided to make aliya, because you didn’t seem to fit into the Israeli molds, neither chareidi, nor dati leumi, but more american yeshivish, so to speak, which there really isn’t in israel, at least not in the school system… That’s exactly why we homeschool and are planning on homeschooling long term, and that’s exactly why we live in a place with kids my children’s ages, and decided to not move to a different house- because a social life for my kids was important especially if we homeschooled, and we are staying in an area with a good social life instead of moving to a home with other perks.
Have you thought about the possibility of:
1)Holding her back or skipping her, so she is in the same good school but in another grade?
2) Sending her to board and going to a school further away? I’ve heard of schools in RBS and Jerusalem that seem to be the type you’re looking for.
3) Possibly moving to another city that actually has kids her age, so she isnt so dependent on classmates to have any social life, and then possibly homeschooling her and your others, because you don’t seem too thrilled with the choices of schooling options here?
I’ll address these points whenever I get around to writing about the religious differences one can expect to encounter when coming here. I wasn’t unaware of them but I did hope to sidestep them to a large degree by virtue of moving where we did. And moving here was an extremely good choice for exactly these reasons; dh and I recently were discussing this and agreed that this was the perfect place for us to move to.
1) I met with her principal months ago to discuss jumping her up a grade, and have another meeting with her next week to talk about this more. This is the only way she’ll stay in her current school and it’s still a possibility.
2) She’s not interested in dorming; yes, we’ve considered it though we don’t like it.
3) No, moving to another city isn’t an option. We moved here for many very well-thought out reasons and they still are valid.
I can’t imagine finding anywhere that I’d be happier with the education choices than I am here. The schools are good, much more open, flexible and inclusive than your typical Israeli schools. The problem is when we move past the local options and have to venture into ‘real’ Israeli educational options.
I hear you. By the way, I hope my post didn’t come across as judgmental, it wasn’t meant that way. I just feel I’m in a similar place religiously to your family, and have been very burnt out by the polarization here, and while I love my community, schools are a big issue, and I feel bad that you’re also not having so much success with the school issue. I hope you figure out something for her!
I didn’t think you were being judgmental, don’t worry! The school issue is one that I think you can only hope for a decent compromise; I don’t believe there will be an ideal situation.
I get that in many ways, compromises are necessary, but sometimes compromising, especially with schooling, can cause undesireable side effects… A possible issue with sending a kid to a school that is mostly in line with your hashkafos but differs in certain ways so that you have to lie about those stuff to get in, is that they may present certain things as ideals that you don’t agree with, or may teach the kids that what you’re doing at home is assur, and that can leave a kid confused religiously. This was a big issue with me, but I don’t think it’ll be as much of an issue with your daughter, because your family seems very religiously stable and on top of things, and she is mature, so she’ll probably just be able to discuss it with you and come to her own conclusions that work best for her, even if they might be slightly different than your family’s, but I don’t think that aspect will necessarily be detrimental to her, since she comes from your family.
But there’s one other issue that may be a much bigger one-
My family made aliya when I was about your daughter’s age- I was 16, and when we got here, the schooling options available were different than what we had in the states.
One of the biggest things that really turned me off about my new school here was the lack of respect for other streams of orthodox jews- our rabbi teachers had no problem trash talking other jews ALL the time, and in fact, I just started ditching their classes and stopped caring about what they had to say, because anyone who seemed so unsure of his way that he had to dis the “other” to make himself feel legit didn;t convince me that his way is legit. This isnt just an issue with one sect of judaism in israel- trash talking the other, whether you’re chareidi, dati leumi, masorti, or chiloni, seems the accepted way of life….
So the thing is, even if you find a school for your daughter that is mostly hashkafically in line with what you believe, and even if she stays non confused hashkafically, despite hashkafa differences between home and school, being in such a school situation might make her lose respect for religious authorities or certain religious groups in general, because its quite hard to respect someone who is trash talking others all the time…
Because I am sick of trash talking everyone who isn’t exactly like you, which I find to be so common in israel, I actually prefer socializing with Americans in Israel, because I find that with them, we focus on our common grounds instead of on what divides us, and I live in a mixed community where everyone respects each other,which from what I gather, is similar in karmiel.
Just bear in mind that even with a strong, mature girl, it can be a big “blow” and “shock” to hear people you’re supposed to be respecting constantly badmouthing others, especially jews, especially orthodox jews, which might be an issue with sending to another school, even if its relatively in line with your family’s hashkafos.
Avivah, hatzlachah with these difficult decisions.
Also I wanted to tell you that I attended the conference in baltimore, thank you so much for starting it, it was great.
Thank you, Shuli. And I’m so glad that you enjoyed the conference – a core group of women put in a lot of effort to make it happen this year.
Ibwld consider leaving my daughter in the same school she is now … Many reasons first one being most important – the lesson of sticking situations out and making the best of it is a huge lesson for kids for future adult life ….
Also it is very possible that the girls will change as they mature ( usually the case )
She won’t have to get used to new girls
You like the schools attitude ( which i think is a major! )
If it were me ( and of course it isn’t and ibdont know all the details ) then I wld find one or two nice girls and arrange that she spends time cultivating those friendships … Since she is a big girl you can only help bubsuggestingbshe go to them or have them come over ( which often means as the mother we have inlet them off the hook of certain responsibilities sometimes – in the name of them finding good friends ..) but promoting them getting together .. That’s all she needs .. 1 or 2 good friends and togethe she can face her day
Hi, Neomi – there’s absolutely no possiblity that I’ll leave her in her class. It’s a complex class with a very difficult social and academic dynamic; I’m choosing not to elaborate on just how problematic it is, but believe me, it’s an untenable situation.
She’s stuck it out and used it for growth in a way very few adults could have (including me); two of her teachers who know her well are literally in awe of how she’s handled it, as well as very bothered that she’s been in such a bad situation so long. I’ve considered posting about the specifics because she’s a classic example of the adaptive process at its best and it would be very instructive, but decided against it for the sake of her privacy. The administration didn’t agree to skip her to a higher grade earlier in the year because she’s the best girl in the class and they were hoping she could influence the class dynamic for the better, but that’s way beyond the ability of one girl.
Sometimes there are times you teach a child to perservere through difficulties, but sometimes the most important thing you can teach them is to respect themselves and their needs and to get out of a bad situation.
Aviva, just because the school insists that the home is clean, doesn’t mean that the home is clean. Like you said, many just said “yes” to get in. In fact, many Charedi girls in “clean” homes do use the Internet. The parents are the ones who use the Internet, and the children see their parents use them, and know quite a bit about the movies on YouTube! In fact, some of the kids do use the Internet and know more about smut than the average non-Charedi girl. Everything is upside down.
I am having a similar dilemma right now. I have been homeschooling my children for a while now but recently realize (for reasons that would take to long to explain right now) I need to try to find somewhere for my oldest to go to school. He’s an incredible kid and I and intuitive fear he wont do well in the typical acedemic arena, but the public school kinda freaks me out–it’s a LOT of time to spend in a secular environment every day. The Jewish Montessori looks fantastic, but at $1200 a month for ONE kid it’s not even remotely an option. I’m depressed by all of the options and none seem appealing to me at all.
Avivah, perhaps you can explain something that I am always curious about. When American yeshivish families make Aliyah, they tend to try to join the Chareidi community. But, it seems from my point of view that American chareidi is actually much more similar to chardal, or what is called “dati torani” (basically the same as chardal but men wear knitted kipot and women wear kercheifs). These communities (chardal and dati torani) are makpid on mehudar hechsherim, on seperation of girls and boys, tznius, etc. Many boys in these communities go on to learn in a kollel, but children are given the educational choices to either continue learning or go on for a higher secular education. In addition, they tend to be more open and accepting of behaviors that are halachically in the norm while out of the chareidi norm (e.g., colored shirts for boys, sneakers for women, sports for boys, etc). Is this not more similar to the American yeshivish than the chareidi society?
*This is not meant to be derogatory of any society. I am just trying to understand*
Hi, Sara, welcome!
This is a really, really good question, and very much ties in with what I mentioned in this post that I want to write about – the differences religiously in the approaches in the US and Israel to Orthodoxy. Since you’ve asked, I’m going to try to write about this sooner rather than later – it’s a topic that’s taken a huge amount of headspace for me since I’ve gotten here.
Sara, the biggest difference between chareidi and dati leumi is their attitude towards the state of israel, if israel in its current form is “atchalta digeula”, a stepping stone on the way towards bringing moshiach, and hence has religious significance (with many ramifications, yom haatzmaut being only one of many, many others), vs being an a-religious thing, just a political event with no religious connotation whatsoever, to the extreme of people who consider the state of israel to be an abomination and a chillul hashem and something that is being meakev (preventing) the geula. Chareidim tend to be any of the things along that spectrum, but rarely, if ever, consider the state to be a positive thing. (State is not Eretz Yisrael. Two aren’t synonymous.) Because the attitude towards the state is such a huge thing, and its so hard for american chareidim/yeshivish to wrap their heads around this viewpoint that is either so foreign to them or even offensive to them, many american yeshivish prefer to align with chareidim, even though they differ on many other topics.
Ronit, I disagree with you. I don’t think the attitude towards the SoI is the biggest difference. I think the difference is much wider. In fact I would say the attitudes of some Aguda factions are close to chardal (or rather some chardal have moved close to Aguda). I would say the major difference is the attitude to the world at large – do our lives center on Torah and everything else is just a tool to learn Torah and keep mitzvos (chareidi) or is there importance to other things in the world (dati leumi) and we do those things while making sure to keep mitzvos? It is a very big chasm, greater in my opinion than attitudes to the State.
Avivah, I know the BY in Haifa is considered relatively ‘centrist’ compared to other BYs – for example, it is one of the few BYs in the country to teach a full Bagrut program.
Unfortunately long bus journeys are not uncommon here for schools – my dd will also be traveling to another city every day next year.
Good point, but attitude towards the state is in my opinion, the biggest difference. Because yes, in more modern dati leumi, the thought is “if the torah doesn’t forbid it, its ok”, while most chariedi say “does the torah _want_ me to do this?” But then you have the very right wing dati leumi, like merkaz harav kook and yeshivat bet el which have the same attitude towards torah as chareidim, and you have chareidim who have the attitude of “well its not assur, so why not”… The biggest thing that defines dati leumi is the “leumiyut”, and the dati aspect of it, making nationalism (and the state) into a religious thing. Because when you have a merkaz haravnik and a chareidi guy, their attitude towards almost everything will be the same, other than yom haatzmaut, the medina, the army, etc…
Some American yeshivish communities today will allow EMAIL and Internet. Israeli Charedi (the strictest version) does not allow even a computer in the home. American Charedi schools in Israel teach secular studies in addition to Jewish studies. Israeli Charedi only Kodesh. Many American style Bais Yaakov in Israel do bagrut, but not for Israeli Bais Yaakov.
I beiieve Dati Torani is more flexible than Chardal. Chardal schools have separate boys and girls buildings usually addresses apart. Dati Torani has separate boys and girls classrooms but in the same school building. This is more like the neighborhood Jewish Day School in small-town Jewish communities. But there’s a big difference. The Dati Torani schools are usually very crowded and absorb a lot of non-Jewish Ethiopian immigrants, which contribute to the violence in the schools.
Chardal may be more strict, but they are more Dati Leumi than Charedi. They enforce reciting Hallel on Yom Ha’atzmaut and yom Yerushalayim. Charedi schools couldn’t care less.
Miriam, I agree that the issue is much bigger than just the attitude towards the state.
And regarding the BY in Haifa, I think it’s centrist approach is why it was recommended. Dd does want to get her bagrut, though this year we learned that the law has changed and chutzim (the charedi ‘bagrut’) can be applied towards higher learning outside the charedi system. So we’ll still consider a non-bagrut high school, though it’s not our ideal.
Avivah, if you like the school so much but her class is the issue, would you consider moving her up a grade? I’ve done that a few times and it worked out well, b”H.
Welcome, df! I have a meeting with her principal tomorrow morning to discuss this very topic – I was strongly pushing for her to be skipped up in the middle of the year but the principal refused; they said skipping is unconventional but skipping mid year wasn’t a possibility at all. There are a few issues with skipping up, one of which is that it’s the class my dd17 is currently in, and though she won’t be there next year, dd15 doesn’t want to be seen as dd17’s little sister instead of herself. And then she will miss being able to do all the eleventh grade bagrut exams, which theoretically she can make up on her own so it’s not a dealbreaker.