A couple of weeks ago I posted about my conversation with the principal of the girls’ high school that we were most interested in for our dd15. At that time, the principal closed the conversation by telling me that although she felt it was forbidden to allow a girl into their school from a family that used the internet, she would send us their ‘takanon’ (school rules) and if we felt we could abide by them, she’d ask a rabbi a personalized question about our family.
We got the takanon, seven typed pages of mostly rules about modesty in dress. I personally found this very off-putting – our approach to modesty is to model it and talk very little about the technical ‘rules’ with our girls. Last year when I was visiting Israel, a friend who was a seminary teacher mentioned at a get together in honor of me visiting that ‘you can’t pay girls to look like this nowadays’ (referring to our oldest two girls who were with me). While I was uncomfortable with this being drawn attention to publicly, modesty is something that isn’t a struggle for dd15. (Not implying anything about our other girls but this high school situation is about her.) She has a very strong intrinsic sense of modesty and there’s nothing in her clothing choices that has ever given me pause.
However, despite every single item she owns being in accordance with Jewish law, nothing in her closet was suitable for the takanon. Her skirts are too long (skirts can only be between the knee and mid calf and hers are a couple of inches above the ankle), her shirts are made of the wrong material (no cotton knits/tricot allowed), her legs aren’t covered with thick enough material (stockings must be 40 denier thick), her hair isn’t modest enough (no bangs allowed or hair partially pulled up), and the list continues.
Why, why, why do schools think that imposing increasingly strict rules on girls makes them more sensitive to modesty? Modesty isn’t something I struggle with, but I still felt like screaming and running in the other direction when I read this long and burdensome list of rules, which are binding on the student both in and outside of school, in every social situation. Dr. Gordon Neufeld has coined the term ‘counterwill’ to explain the pyschological phenomenon that comes into play when a person feels coerced or controlled beyond the limits of the relationship. That means that if you feel very close to someone and they make a suggestion to pull your hair out of your face, you’re likely to do it. But without that connection, having someone make the same suggestion causes you want to dig your heels in and do the exact opposite. I believe that a lot of the resistance to modesty that we see today that the schools are trying to counter with escalating rules, are ironically actually caused by those rules.
Years ago I was in a small shiur with Rebbetzin Heller when she spoke about modesty. She stressed the importance of an inside/outside approach – you teach the meaning and beauty of it, and trust women to make external choices that match their inner sensitivity. At that point, I asked her why it is that virtually all charedi schools teach from an outside/inside approach – stressing the rules and obsessing over minor details, while glossing over the deeper meanings and inspiration about this. She told me, ‘it’s a problem’.
No kidding it’s a problem. I actually wonder how many girls with strict school rules regarding modesty would be inspired to dress in the dictated manner if left to their own discretion. A day after receiving the takanon and going through it together, dd was babysitting for someone and took their children to the park that is frequented by the local kollel wives. When she came home, she asked me at what point the Bais Yaakov modesty standards that are expected of charedi girls stops being binding – because she noticed that almost all of the kollel wives were dressed very similarly to her (ie fine halachically and in the spirit of modesty, but not meeting these specific rules). I recently spoke with a couple of Israeli charedi teachers about this takanon, and they both told me that their clothing would also be considered inappropriate by that school.
During another conversation, dd15 also told me that in her current school (which has a very reasonable takanon), they regularly have inspirational speakers come in to talk to the girls. And she told me she’s so sick of hearing the conclusion to almost all of these talks – ‘so the next time you’re in the store and buying a skirt, be sure to make sure it’s long enough’. It’s pretty bad when someone who is naturally so sensitive to this topic is fed up of hearing about it after just nine months in school! She asked me, isn’t there anything else in the practice of Judaism that they care about? Don’t they care if someone is trying to be a good person and grow closer to Hashem (G-d)?
Personally, if I were teaching high school girls, the last topic I would broach is modesty. I think it gets shoved down their throats for years and made into an unnecessary power struggle. When I give my weekly classes on the parsha (weekly Torah portion), I share messages that I find inspiring about how to live our lives in a meaningful way using the Torah as our guidebook. That’s what I like hearing now and that’s what I would have wanted to hear more about when I was a high school student, not about long lists of rules and the punishments awaiting me in the next world if I put a finger out of line. (I recently had a burst of desire to give a weekly class to the high school girls in the local school along these lines – if the principal asks me again to give a class there, instead of refusing her like the last three times she asked, I’m going to suggest this.)
In case you’re wondering about what happened with dd’s school acceptance, we called the school to let them know we were willing to go along with the takanon. We gave them number of five teachers as well as the city rabbi who were ready to give very warm references about dd and our family, and two other teachers in the community offered to call personal contacts in that school to recommend dd. However, this clearly wasn’t enough since I got a call from the secretary yesterday telling me they won’t take dd since she comes from a home where there is internet. (I don’t believe that they called any of the references or asked the personalized rabbinic shaila as I was told they would but it’s their loss.) It left me wondering why we wasted two weeks following through with this school after our last conversation if it was going to come back to the internet issue anyway!
Though this was frustrating, it’s obvious Hashem doesn’t want dd to be attending this school and He has a better plan and place for her. We’ll see where that will be and how things will play out for her in the short and long term. One positive thing is that now I don’t have the internal struggle with going along with an approach to modesty that I find inherently problematic and demotivating.
Avivah
Why did they waste your time and the time of the people you spoke with? It seems that they never had an intention of accepting dd in the first place.
It is an incredible problem. I don’t think the way the schools address the tznius (modesty) problem is right. But, on the other hand, there are tremendous problems with tznius once some BY girls leave school – the instinctive part, not the technical part. I don’t know about Carmiel, but I look around here and many women may keep the technical rules, but they are wordlessly screaming: look at me.
Would things be better if there weren’t rules and they just inspired girls to be tznius by uplifting talks? Maybe. I really don’t know.
All I know is whenever I go to a talk for women and the speaker mentions how tznius is so important, I look around me. And all the women there are perfectly 100% tznius by any yardstick you want to use. Because the ones who aren’t didn’t come.
I don’t think it’s fair to compare with a baal teshuva approach – these schools are for girls committed to keeping halacha (Jewish law). The teachers can’t use inspiring ideas and hope they work. There are other girls there who might be influenced.
” I look around here and many women may keep the technical rules, but they are wordlessly screaming: look at me.”
Could this be at all due to the way it sounds like girls in some BY schools (all?) are marginalized? They are thinking human beings as well. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that the ever-increasing requirements regarding the thickness of tights and the precise length of skirt are demeaning on so many levels. Anyone would try to screw up her courage to demand someone take notice!
As long as tzniut stays such a major part of the curriculum (really????), girls within the system will rebel due to the injustice. Feed their minds with knowledge of our Sages and their hearts with love of Torah and the modesty will follow.
You really think it is only BY girls who want people to notice them and dress accordingly? I think you should go out into the street and look at how many secular women dress. It is natural human nature (though, of course, not every woman/girl is like that naturally). I’m sorry you think technical rules like skirt length are demeaning – I’m not sure why. All areas of halacha (Jewish law) have technical rules.
There are no ‘ever-increasing requirements’. The requirements have not changed. There are more rules taught, because women and girls wear things no one wore fifty or a hundred years ago. Next year the fashion designers will think of something else and they will have to make a rule about it. Take, for example, sheitels (wigs). The type of sheitels rabbonim forbid today simply didn’t exist 30 years ago.
What I think Avivah is talking about – and I agree – is what is the best way to have our daughters (and ourselves!) want to be modest, not have it being forced on them as a school rule.
“Feed their minds with knowledge of our Sages and their hearts with love of Torah and the modesty will follow.”
This sounds so nice, but unfortunately it doesn’t always work. It really depends.
The woman of Karmiel have a very nice approach to modesty, in my opinion – I don’t often see the phenomenon that you’re describing though I’m very familiar with what you’re referring to.
I’m not comparing anything to a baal teshuva approach, though I think the approach given over to those new to Judaism would be helpful for those born and raised religious as well. I was speaking with an Israeli charedi friend who went to Gateshead after high school, and she told me that it was like a breath of fresh air that modesty wasn’t all about the rules. And within a short time of being there, the girls were all very careful about their dress because they had absorbed the message of being a bas yisroel and wanting their clothing to reflect that.
A seminary student who visited this year told me that her seminary (I think it was Meor) didn’t have a dress code, and she said she noted a similar thing – that the girls with time raised their expectations of their dress as they became more sensitive to what it means to be a bas yisroel. But this means that educators have to really trust and understand the process of emergence and a person’s desire to grow, which is hard to do because people proceed at an individual pace.
Aviva, As you noted “gam zu le’tovah”! You are too sensible for a “follow the crows” mentaliry. I wish you hatzlacha in finding the apporoapate school for dd, and thoroughly appreciate your candor in posting your experiences
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Aviva, I’m sorry about your frustration with the Charedi school system in Israel. I knew the issue of modesty is going to come up.
I wasn’t aware about the importance of modesty, until a year ago, when I picked up the sefer from Rabbi Falk and studied it cover to cover. The reason why most of us are uncomfortable about the modesty laws is because we have lost our inner sense of what modesty is about. The clothing that are being marketed today are far from modest, even though you will see Kollel wives and Rebbetzins wearing them. There are Rabbis out there who speak out against this.
A very basic idea is if the clothing is tight on the body including the upper arms, chest, and hips, then the clothing is no longer modest according to tzniut. Today, it is very hard to find clothing that has a kosher modest fit that is at least semi-fitted and also kosher at the neckline, sleeves and hem. So, what do most “observant” Jewish women do today? They thought they could solve the problem with the “shell.” Well, the “shell” is a very tight garment that stretches over the body like a layer of skin. It is not modest because it is tight everywhere — chest, upper arms, hips. The only thing that works for the shell is the neckline, however, because it is a very tight garment (like a layer of skin over the body), it is not modest. However, most of the Jewish women who wear them, are not aware that tight clothing is immodest even if they have high necklines.
Another skill that the Jewish women have lost over the generations is the ability to make their own garment — sewing. If Jewish girls start taking up sewing today, the issue of modesty will be less of a problem. They would still need to learn what the halachos of tzniut are and sew according to these. They could sew complete garments that are modest and refined.
Rebbetzin Heller regularly answers questions on tzniut. I’ve compiled one of her teshuvos on my website. Here is a Q&A on it:
Question: In my community, the standards of tzniut are quite different than those espoused by some of my relatives. Do you think I need to conform to my relatives’ standards when I visit them in order not to cause anyone anguish?
Answer:
Your problem is that you don’t think tzniut is a virtue. You wouldn’t find it all that terrible if someone told your child to be more virtuous. You probably have no problem with people giving more tzedaka, being more honest, doing more chesed, and living a more righteous life than you. You would probably feel awkward as I did, when I was once visiting the Rachmastrivka Rebbetzin. Someone came to the door asking for tzedaka. She listened to the whole story, read the entire letter (which I usually don’t), and then began showering the man with brachot. She named a sum that she would give (which is a lot more than what I usually give) and apologized that this was all she could offer. She then went to the kitchen and returned with double the amount she had promised him. I felt small and cheap in her presence. I’m willing to say that the experience was worth it because it ignited something inside me to want to grow in chesed.
Tzniut, is the most important mitzvah for the Jewish woman, that is why it is being heavily weighed in a Charedi school. There are shiurim that I have compiled over the year (since I’ve studied Rabbi Falk’s sefarim), that emphasized this matter. Unfortunately, we, the Jewish women have not been educated well enough about this issue.
http://modestanytime.com/Resources/Jewish-Women/
I am not Charedi, but the halachos of tzniut applies to every Jewish woman. As a mother to daughters, I am also responsible for educating my daughters in this mitzvah.
Let’s not be upset with the Charedim who has upheld this mitzvah and continue to do so. The mitzvah of tzniut is for every Jewish woman. Just as we are particularly careful about Shabbos, Kashrus and mikvah, we need to be even more careful about tzniut. Tzniut is by far the most challenging mitzvah for the Jewish woman. That’s why it is also the most important.
Moriah, I appreciate your passion for the subject, but get the feeling you assume I wouldn’t possibly know about the modesty standards in the charedi world without having had this experience. I’ve been familiar with Rav Falk’s sefer since it first came out, and I’ve been familiar with the Israeli charedi world firsthand a lot longer than that – it’s going on about twenty years.
I’m not ‘frustrated’ or ‘upset with charedim’ for what they choose to do. It’s my choice to affiliate where I want and at the point that I feel this isn’t a good fit for our family, then I’ll choose to affiliate elsewhere. You’re responding as someone outside of the charedi world, and I’m writing as someone who has identified as ‘charedi’ for many years. I’m not discussing if the standards of this school are reasonable or positive; they’re entitled to whatever rules they want to have and if I don’t like it, then it’s my problem, not theirs. Did you note in my post that we told the school we were fine going along with the takanon? The question I’m addressing here is, if someone values modesty as a primary value, is imposing lots of rules and not giving over the internal substance of the mitzva going to give over that value? In my experience, the answer is ‘no’.
Yes, I noted the post about the decision to not accept based on Internet as well. It’s virtuous to cut out Internet completely in a Jew’s life. Since most of us are not there yet, it’s fine to assume that we do not fit in the Charedi system of education right now. I look to the Charedim as the Leviim of the nation. They safeguard the mishkan, they have to keep a high level of modesty as well as purity.
The Charedim ideal is purity and holy. Let’s all strive towards that, even if we don’t agree with the methods being used to live it. I see the rules that are imposed as no different than the rules that Hashem imposed on the Leviim in their posts in the Mishkan or the Kohanim in their bigdei Kehuna and their roles in the Mishkan.
Many Americans identify themselves as Charedim, but the Israeli Charedim are more strict, and these are not just the Chassidim. The American Charedi’s Internet policy as we can see from the Internet Asifa allows Internet at home with filters and only for work. The Israeli Charedim have higher ideals, i.e. to cut it out completely from the home.
Israel being #1 user of Facebook, includes many American Charedim who are Torah-affiliated speakers and educators. Rabbi Yitzchak Berkovitz in his address to the Professional Jewish Women’s Conference (Kishor) advised that it’s better to work outside the home than inside as far as Internet is concerned, even though the Rav admits that he has Internet at home for his shiurim and work.
Rebbetzin Holly Pavlov admits having a Facebook account as a way to reach as many of her contacts as possible.
The split between American and Israeli Charedim has been an interesting one. More interesting lectures can be found here.
http://jerusalemsupermoms.ning.com/page/kishor-recordings
Aviva, if you have identified yourself as charedi in the past twenty years, you must also have realized that “rules” rule in Orthodox Hebrew Day schools pertaining to school policies including dress code.
So, why the discomfort now?
Aviva, you are so, so strong to not let these challenges knock you down or rile you up. I’m truly inspired by you. Thank you.
I am so tired of jumping through hoops trying to prove my family is frum enough. So about a year ago we said enough! No more conforming to others standards. Hashem wants us to be modest, We will answer to Him and no one else. The other way we ended up chasing our own tails trying to please these people , who really cared nothing about my family anyhow.
totally their loss!!!
Saying that tzniut is the most important mitzvah for a Jewish woman is like saying that the thing that matters most about a sefer Torah is its mantle. We are hiding the beautiful truth of Torah by focusing on externals. No one benefits.
Tzniut is the most important mitzvah for a woman because a woman who doesn’t cover what needs to cover will have others focused on her body instead of her soul, which is reflected through the face.
There are many shiurim that explains this concept as well as Rabbi Falk’s sefarim.
http://modestanytime.com/Resources/Jewish-Women/ has shiurim from both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Torah speakers, both men and women, and also a link to Rabbi Falk’s sefer on Google Books.
So… tzniut matters more than shabbat? Honesty in business? Taharat HaMishpacha? Tzedaka? Really?
Tzniut might be a challenge for some in our generation, but that doesn’t make it the most important mitzvah for women in our time. Our generation has many, many challenges, and focusing on the external ones misses what’s really going on. In fact, the focus on externals is perhaps the greatest challenge of our generation.
I think that we agree that a woman’s true beauty is in her neshama, not in her form. And I think we agree that we live in a youth and beauty obsessed culture. But when we counter a society that is focused on externals by focusing on externals, what have we taught our daughters? And what do we think about ourselves?
I am surprised that you think this school would have been a good fit for your daughter. It seems they are much more focused on the externalities than you are. And IMO, she will thrive much better in a place where they recognize her amazing middos than a place which would consider her below their rules.
I understand why you’re surprised, Nechama! I kept asking myself why I was putting myself through this, because it’s been a very draining and frustrating process, but the answer was that dd and I both saw it as the best option for her.
There aren’t exactly a lot of school choices in the northern part of Israel and nothing is ideal, especially since we’re an American family who doesn’t exactly fit into any specific religious group. There are two DL schools but the one I would have been interested in has a dorm for every day of the week except for Tuesdays and the girls come home every Shabbos; neither dd or I wanted her to dorm.
The rest of the schools are BYs – all of which have similar takanons, though this school is known to be the most exclusive. The reason that in spite of that I was interested is that it has more of a more spiritual focus on Torah rather than academic, small classes, lots of extracurricular, and a lot of warmth. It’s ironic that she’s exactly the kind of student they’re looking for, but they never got the point of looking at who she is….
Wow! This HS sounds really intense–and I was also wondering why you thought that it would be a good fit for your family. When I went to HS (bais Yaakov of Denver) one of my teachers reinterpreted the classic explanation of “kol kvudah bas melech pnima”–the value/honor of a princess is what’s inside her. It is often explained as girls dressing in ways that don’t draw attention, is very plain, etc. Which, incidentally also sometimes leaves many girls with bad posture and no sense of personal style. So this teacher explained that this is because most people focus on the “pnimah” rather than on the “bas melech” part–we tell how, rather than why. Once we see ourselves as “princesses,” we act and dress differently. You’ll know that if you’ve ever worn a long ballgown you stand and act differently. Actually, I taught HS at one point in the city where I live and I brought in a ballgown skirt and a nice wedding-appropriate top for the girls to try on so they feel like the important bnos melech that they are.
I hope you have lots of hatzlacha with your daughter for next year!
Aivah – did you get a chance to follow up with the schools/people I gave you numbers for?
Yes, I did, thank you! I learned that all the BY choices in the north aren’t really too different from one another …
What about speaking with Rav Grossman from Migdal Haemek?
Also why did the school dispatch a secretary to inform you of the acceptance/rejection? Should you have not heard directly from the principal? How do you know she is not accepted? Speaking to the principal directly may help to clarify the grounds for not accepting her.
>>The Charedim ideal is purity and holy. Let’s all strive towards that, even if we don’t agree with the methods being used to live it. I see the rules that are imposed as no different than the rules that Hashem imposed on the Leviim in their posts in the Mishkan or the Kohanim in their bigdei Kehuna and their roles in the Mishkan.<<
You've expressed your admiration for a very lofty ideal, and that's beautiful. I don't agree with your comparison to the Leviim or Kohanim – Hashem gave everyone a role to play and we're not all expected to imitate either of those groups of people. If we were, Hashem would have created us all the same. Based on things you've written in the past, I sense that you're a person who feels that more rules equals a higher quality of life, but this isn't my belief.
So, why do you even want to apply to a Charedi school if you don’t like the rules?
LOL, since you had such a positive experience with Israeli schools yourself, you surely know how realistic it is to find a school where you agree with every little detail of the rules and management style. 🙂
I appreciate your desire to comment but it would be more constructive if you responded to what is actually being said (and also if you would comment under the same name when commenting on one post). I was responding to *your* position being something I don’t agree with; more than once I’ve said that we agreed to go along with the school rules.
Well, your post surely sounded like you didn’t like the rules being imposed, particularly “no internet” at home.
In Israel, if you don’t like the rules of the school, don’t go there. NBN held a “school” meeting with representatives of different schools for new olim and each one said the same thing – the school is not going to change for you — you don’t like the rules, you don’t belong in that school. School hopping is quite common.
There are American “charedi” schools which will accept the Internet at home. You just need to find them. If you are willing to dorm, I can tell you which ones I know in another community.
Many parents of these schools are on Facebook, and perhaps they lied to the schools when they enrolled their girls.
Ask Rebbetzin Heller for advice.
Good luck!
Aviva, this is the American Modern Orthodox, OU”s response to the Asifa, if you are interested.
http://www.ou.org/life/inspiration/anti-asifa-consider-this-efrem-goldber/#.T-NU-vWDmSq
You might find some common ground with the MO, even though you identify yourself with Charedi.
I am not MO, I am not Charedi, I am just a Ba’alat Teshuva Orthodox Jew, somewhere in the middle, hopefully advancing forward.
“There are no ‘ever-increasing requirements’. The requirements have not changed. There are more rules taught, because women and girls wear things no one wore fifty or a hundred years ago. ”
Look, if we’re going to be intellectually honest, one-hundred and fifty years ago, skirts/dresses were sweeping the floor. According to the takanon from the prospective school in discussion, that is not an acceptable length. It changed. Why? Control. Plain and simple. The desire to isolate and isolate and further isolate. Some claim this is pursuit of purity.
Of course many women want to be looked at. It’s a strong biological drive. There is a point to tzniut. This school (and it’s ilk) is taking things too far. It’s about control and has ceased to be about developing the beautiful neshamas of these young women. It’s the age old issue that women are dangerous and their bodies are dangerous so we must cover them up and lock them away. Only, nowadays locking women away is a crime in many places so forcing girls to cover up more and more and all the apologetics that go along with it is the natural consequence when you have a population of young women whom you feel you must control.
These schools are just not taking a humane nor an intellectually honest position.
The whole application to BY system is silly – I will never send my children to a school that has a rejection process. NEVER! My girls go to a Mamlachti Dati school run by Chabad here in Yavniel. As to where they will go to school later? I am not sure but it will not be a school that will rake my family over the coals and humiliate us. When our girls are old enough I would like them to go to Migdal Ohr. And for a little bit of ironic humor:
BYManahelet: @OceansofJoy’s DD15 sorry to inform you….. 😛
It might not be for your family, but my daughter in the Ulpana in Tiveria came home from a Shabbat with the school and told me she loves Tefilah. Really what else can you ask for, but a child who is happy to be born Jewish as well as to practice!
Shabbat Shalom.
What I find most interesting is the way in which the written rules and the application/acceptance process can inform you of the unwritten rules the school follows, about how to educate children and what messages we need to give them about life as a Jewish woman. I’m assuming it would apply equally to boys.
I’m finding it helpful as we look at high schools for our oldest, and grapple with some of the same issues regarding which school would be the best fit for her.